Baseball's Problem

For the civil discussion of pro sports
User avatar
JD2.0
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 6809
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Heartland

Baseball's Problem

Post by JD2.0 »

“Is a dream a lie when it don’t come true, or is it something worse?”
User avatar
jim beam
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 3807
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:38 pm

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by jim beam »

Hard not to agree. Im still a fan and am very happy to have baseball back as part of my life.
Thanks J.J. for what I consider sound advice!
User avatar
Butler Blue
Platinum Poster (1000 posts)
Platinum Poster (1000 posts)
Posts: 1185
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:41 pm

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by Butler Blue »

Great article.

The velocity thing is amazing to me. 100 years ago when I was in high school, 80-82 was fast. Now, I'm seeing 13-14 year-olds (8th graders) throwing 80-82.
User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 24965
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by tribecalledquest »

Great quote here. It's a hard game that has gotten harder for the hitters. I think it will adjust back like many things. Will take some time.

"But when they're throwing 95-100 mph, you have to decide much earlier and swing much harder and faster just to get the barrel to the ball. Not every hitter is trying to hit a home run on every pitch. A lot of hitters are just up there trying to survive."
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
JD2.0
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 6809
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Heartland

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by JD2.0 »

jim beam wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 10:17 am Hard not to agree. Im still a fan and am very happy to have baseball back as part of my life.
Absolutely. I am happy to have it on TV every night, even though it's the Reds. But it is hard to watch at times. I do miss the strategy and "small ball" a lot though.
“Is a dream a lie when it don’t come true, or is it something worse?”
User avatar
SFP
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5721
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:48 am
Location: Anywhere except where you think I am

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by SFP »

JD2.0 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 1:32 pm
jim beam wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 10:17 am Hard not to agree. Im still a fan and am very happy to have baseball back as part of my life.
Absolutely. I am happy to have it on TV every night, even though it's the Reds. But it is hard to watch at times. I do miss the strategy and "small ball" a lot though.
I'm with you. The best part of being a fan is trying to figure out what each team is trying to do even from one pitch to another. Now with the stats and AI at the finger tips of these guys it has become a different game to some extent.
As Desmond Tutu said: “If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.”
User avatar
squirrel
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 36129
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:45 pm
Location: Peoria, IL

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by squirrel »

Baseball has bigger fundamental issues than this, but it's a big problem presently.

"You're only as good as your last game in this business; always know that. You're never as good as you think, you're never as bad as you think." - Brian Wardle
User avatar
Butler Blue
Platinum Poster (1000 posts)
Platinum Poster (1000 posts)
Posts: 1185
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:41 pm

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by Butler Blue »

squirrel wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:25 am Baseball has bigger fundamental issues than this, but it's a big problem presently.

I would think that they would try lowering it before moving it back.
User avatar
oftenrunning52
Gold Poster (500 posts)
Gold Poster (500 posts)
Posts: 628
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: at a cross country course somewhere

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by oftenrunning52 »

Butler Blue wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:20 am
squirrel wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:25 am Baseball has bigger fundamental issues than this, but it's a big problem presently.

I would think that they would try lowering it before moving it back.
Is this an overreaction to what might be an aberration? I feel like the pendulum has swung about as far as it can to no contact baseball. It will start to swing back, maybe as early as next year, as teams figure out that doing what everyone else is doing won't work for everyone.
Dunlap Eagles
2011 and 2012 Mid-Illini Boys Cross Country Champions
2012-2019, 2021 Mid-Illini Girls Cross Country Champions
2014 3rd place and 2016 2nd place Girls 2A IHSA Cross Country
2017 Girls IHSA Cross Country State Champions
User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 24965
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by tribecalledquest »

oftenrunning52 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:31 am
Butler Blue wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:20 am
squirrel wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:25 am Baseball has bigger fundamental issues than this, but it's a big problem presently.

I would think that they would try lowering it before moving it back.
Is this an overreaction to what might be an aberration? I feel like the pendulum has swung about as far as it can to no contact baseball. It will start to swing back, maybe as early as next year, as teams figure out that doing what everyone else is doing won't work for everyone.
I agree with this. It may take a few seasons but there will be a competitive advantage to strikeout less, etc. Smart people will figure it out.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
Butler Blue
Platinum Poster (1000 posts)
Platinum Poster (1000 posts)
Posts: 1185
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:41 pm

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by Butler Blue »

tribecalledquest wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 1:16 pm
oftenrunning52 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:31 am
Butler Blue wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:20 am

I would think that they would try lowering it before moving it back.
Is this an overreaction to what might be an aberration? I feel like the pendulum has swung about as far as it can to no contact baseball. It will start to swing back, maybe as early as next year, as teams figure out that doing what everyone else is doing won't work for everyone.
I agree with this. It may take a few seasons but there will be a competitive advantage to strikeout less, etc. Smart people will figure it out.
Anecdotally, I see this in 14U baseball. Over the last 2 seasons, my son's team is pretty much the only team that we have seen that bunts. Last weekend, they squeezed 2 runs across in consecutive innings. Most of the teams sit back and hope to hit 275 foot homeruns over short fences with loaded up USSSA bats.
User avatar
Buckeyes1
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 6412
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:03 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by Buckeyes1 »

oftenrunning52 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:31 am
Butler Blue wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:20 am
squirrel wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:25 am Baseball has bigger fundamental issues than this, but it's a big problem presently.

I would think that they would try lowering it before moving it back.
Is this an overreaction to what might be an aberration? I feel like the pendulum has swung about as far as it can to no contact baseball. It will start to swing back, maybe as early as next year, as teams figure out that doing what everyone else is doing won't work for everyone.
I don’t see it that way. Pitchers aren’t going to stop throwing 100 with Greg Maddux like movement. It’s not just guys swinging for the fences all the time. That is obviously part of it but pitchers are throwing better stuff than ever before by a long shot. Coupled with the shift and counting on 3 singles to score a run is a pretty tall order.
You better hope the BIG institutes a mercy rule because we’re gonna drop 100
User avatar
Butler Blue
Platinum Poster (1000 posts)
Platinum Poster (1000 posts)
Posts: 1185
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:41 pm

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by Butler Blue »

Buckeyes1 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:21 pm
oftenrunning52 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:31 am
Butler Blue wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:20 am

I would think that they would try lowering it before moving it back.
Is this an overreaction to what might be an aberration? I feel like the pendulum has swung about as far as it can to no contact baseball. It will start to swing back, maybe as early as next year, as teams figure out that doing what everyone else is doing won't work for everyone.
I don’t see it that way. Pitchers aren’t going to stop throwing 100 with Greg Maddux like movement. It’s not just guys swinging for the fences all the time. That is obviously part of it but pitchers are throwing better stuff than ever before by a long shot. Coupled with the shift and counting on 3 singles to score a run is a pretty tall order.
Great point on the defensive shifting. Huge component. Dudes are "grounding out 4-3" to a second baseman who is standing 150 feet away from home plate in shallow right field, or lining one up the middle directly to the SS standing 25 feet behind second base.
User avatar
pndbaseball12
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5632
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:15 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by pndbaseball12 »

Butler Blue wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:46 am
Buckeyes1 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:21 pm
oftenrunning52 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:31 am

Is this an overreaction to what might be an aberration? I feel like the pendulum has swung about as far as it can to no contact baseball. It will start to swing back, maybe as early as next year, as teams figure out that doing what everyone else is doing won't work for everyone.
I don’t see it that way. Pitchers aren’t going to stop throwing 100 with Greg Maddux like movement. It’s not just guys swinging for the fences all the time. That is obviously part of it but pitchers are throwing better stuff than ever before by a long shot. Coupled with the shift and counting on 3 singles to score a run is a pretty tall order.
Great point on the defensive shifting. Huge component. Dudes are "grounding out 4-3" to a second baseman who is standing 150 feet away from home plate in shallow right field, or lining one up the middle directly to the SS standing 25 feet behind second base.
See I don’t have a problem with shifting. In every sport you adjust your defense to what the offense is doing. I know it’s easier said than done, but the art of going the other way is gone. A lot of that has to do with pitchers dictating what you can do with a pitch, but some of it is swinging out of the shoes because analytics tell you it’s actually better to swing for the fences. It’s the same argument as the 3 point shot in basketball that people say is ruining the game to an extent.

The difference between now and “days of old” is the speed combined with the movement. There are probably a dozen plus guys in MLB that throw 98+ mph 2 seam fastballs and sinkers. Also combine umpires not knowing the strike zone and it’s a recipe for no contact.
The difference between the impossible and the possible lies in a mans determination
-Tommy Lasorda
User avatar
JD2.0
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 6809
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Heartland

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by JD2.0 »

Change has to start at the lowest levels, and I am not sure it will.
“Is a dream a lie when it don’t come true, or is it something worse?”
sshoopster
Silver Poster (250 posts)
Silver Poster (250 posts)
Posts: 451
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:05 am

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by sshoopster »

I’m not so sure it’s a case of umpires not knowing the strike zone. They certainly know how it is defined. I think it’s a case that each umpire thinks he has the prerogative to establish his own strike zone. Once he has established that, major league hitters have to recognize it, and make the appropriate adjustments. My biggest gripe is inconsistency during the game.
User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 24965
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by tribecalledquest »

sshoopster wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 12:13 pm I’m not so sure it’s a case of umpires not knowing the strike zone. They certainly know how it is defined. I think it’s a case that each umpire thinks he has the prerogative to establish his own strike zone. Once he has established that, major league hitters have to recognize it, and make the appropriate adjustments. My biggest gripe is inconsistency during the game.
Time for automated strike zones.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
tombs14
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 4417
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:21 pm
Location: Peoria County

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by tombs14 »

50-70 year old's eyesights don't get better with age.

While pitch speed & movements evolve.
User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 24965
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by tribecalledquest »

tombs14 wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 12:37 pm 50-70 year old's eyesights don't get better with age.

While pitch speed & movements evolve.
100%.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
Buckeyes1
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 6412
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:03 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by Buckeyes1 »

JD2.0 wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:51 am Change has to start at the lowest levels, and I am not sure it will.
One of the low leagues is experimenting with moving the mound back 1 foot. I will be very curious to see the results
You better hope the BIG institutes a mercy rule because we’re gonna drop 100
User avatar
SFP
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5721
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:48 am
Location: Anywhere except where you think I am

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by SFP »

Buckeyes1 wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:30 pm
JD2.0 wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:51 am Change has to start at the lowest levels, and I am not sure it will.
One of the low leagues is experimenting with moving the mound back 1 foot. I will be very curious to see the results
So will I.

Let's face it there's better analytics and managers willing to take out a starter for those favorable matchups. I'd like for baseball to limit how many pitching changes can happen within an inning. This would also speed up the game.
As Desmond Tutu said: “If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.”
User avatar
pndbaseball12
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5632
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:15 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by pndbaseball12 »

SFP wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:33 pm
Buckeyes1 wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:30 pm
JD2.0 wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:51 am Change has to start at the lowest levels, and I am not sure it will.
One of the low leagues is experimenting with moving the mound back 1 foot. I will be very curious to see the results
So will I.

Let's face it there's better analytics and managers willing to take out a starter for those favorable matchups. I'd like for baseball to limit how many pitching changes can happen within an inning. This would also speed up the game.
They already have the 3 batter minimum rule. I don’t think you could change it any more than that. Also if you limit how many pitching changes can be made and a guy is wild you are going to extend it even longer because he can’t find the strike zone and walks everyone.
The difference between the impossible and the possible lies in a mans determination
-Tommy Lasorda
User avatar
Buckeyes1
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 6412
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:03 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by Buckeyes1 »

I couldn’t care less how long a game takes to play. I care about it being entertaining. Back in the early 2000’s when the Yankees and Red Sox were playing 5 hour long games, I never cared. The games were highly entertaining so who cares how long they are?

Aside from unnecessary replay reviews, I have never been annoyed with the length of an Ohio State game.

The problem is with boring games. The game is boring to watch right now because of the enormous amount of strikeouts and the shift robbing people of hits. 2 hours is too long for boring games.
You better hope the BIG institutes a mercy rule because we’re gonna drop 100
deejay
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:16 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by deejay »

I said in the past that the shift will ultimately be detrimental to baseball. You are seeing that this year. Only game that hasn’t kept up with the times. When you continue to make the DH political, then baseball has no chance to be “America’s pastime”.
go cubs go!
User avatar
tombs14
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 4417
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:21 pm
Location: Peoria County

Re: Baseball's Problem

Post by tombs14 »

Terrible calling in this Cubs/ Cards 3rd game.
Post Reply