St. Louis Cardinals 2019

For the civil discussion of pro sports
deejay
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5276
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:16 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by deejay » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:37 pm

I don’t disagree about the great bullpen and with pitch count, but warming up in the bullpen every day taxes the arm. But can’t disagree with what’s working.
go cubs go!

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:41 pm

deejay wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:37 pm
I don’t disagree about the great bullpen and with pitch count, but warming up in the bullpen every day taxes the arm. But can’t disagree with what’s working.
I agree. I wouldn’t have used Martinez four straight days.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

Redbird CC Fan
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 6646
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 3:53 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:59 pm

RIP Chris Duncan.
"Become vengeance, Redbird CC. Become wrath." -John Doe (Se7en, 1995) :SHOW32

User avatar
tombs14
All World
All World
Posts: 3263
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:21 pm
Location: Peoria County

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tombs14 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:22 pm

Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:59 pm
RIP Chris Duncan.
**** Cancer...way too young.

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:20 pm

tombs14 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:22 pm
Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:59 pm
RIP Chris Duncan.
**** Cancer...way too young.
No kidding. Really *** for everyone who knew Chris.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

homey01
Postaholic (100 posts)
Postaholic (100 posts)
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:40 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by homey01 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:25 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:41 pm
deejay wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:37 pm
I don’t disagree about the great bullpen and with pitch count, but warming up in the bullpen every day taxes the arm. But can’t disagree with what’s working.
I agree. I wouldn’t have used Martinez four straight days.
Since you are assuming the role of manager:who specifically would you have used and in which game? Given the fact that you are not privy to any information that any of the others may have given Shildt as to their availability.

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:40 pm

homey01 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:25 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:41 pm
deejay wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:37 pm
I don’t disagree about the great bullpen and with pitch count, but warming up in the bullpen every day taxes the arm. But can’t disagree with what’s working.
I agree. I wouldn’t have used Martinez four straight days.
Since you are assuming the role of manager:who specifically would you have used and in which game? Given the fact that you are not privy to any information that any of the others may have given Shildt as to their availability.
I don’t think it takes a magic pill to pitch the 9th inning of a game.

Of course I dont have the same info as Shildt. But I would have used any other pitcher in the bullpen over Martinez on four straight days.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Bluejaygrad03
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 14877
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:40 pm
Location: Petersburg
Contact:

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by Bluejaygrad03 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:44 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:20 pm
tombs14 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:22 pm
Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:59 pm
RIP Chris Duncan.
**** Cancer...way too young.
No kidding. Really *** for everyone who knew Chris.
And it was the same form of brain cancer that his mom passed away from.

sshoopster
Rookie (5 posts)
Rookie (5 posts)
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:05 am

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by sshoopster » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:36 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:40 pm
homey01 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:25 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:41 pm


I agree. I wouldn’t have used Martinez four straight days.
Since you are assuming the role of manager:who specifically would you have used and in which game? Given the fact that you are not privy to any information that any of the others may have given Shildt as to their availability.
I don’t think it takes a magic pill to pitch the 9th inning of a game.

Of course I dont have the same info as Shildt. But I would have used any other pitcher in the bullpen over Martinez on four straight days.
Cabrera and Fernandez? In a game-deciding situation in the middle of a pennant race? Your admission that you don't have the same information as Shildt, completely undermines the credibility of your next sentence.

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:01 pm

sshoopster wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:36 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:40 pm
homey01 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:25 pm


Since you are assuming the role of manager:who specifically would you have used and in which game? Given the fact that you are not privy to any information that any of the others may have given Shildt as to their availability.
I don’t think it takes a magic pill to pitch the 9th inning of a game.

Of course I dont have the same info as Shildt. But I would have used any other pitcher in the bullpen over Martinez on four straight days.
Cabrera and Fernandez? In a game-deciding situation in the middle of a pennant race? Your admission that you don't have the same information as Shildt, completely undermines the credibility of your next sentence.
If it were those two or Martinez on a 4th straight day? Absolutely. I didn’t say them over him on a normal day. I said over him on a 4th straight day. Let’s remember the scenario here.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

SShadowJr
Rookie (5 posts)
Rookie (5 posts)
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:42 am

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by SShadowJr » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:12 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:01 pm
sshoopster wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:36 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:40 pm


I don’t think it takes a magic pill to pitch the 9th inning of a game.

Of course I dont have the same info as Shildt. But I would have used any other pitcher in the bullpen over Martinez on four straight days.
Cabrera and Fernandez? In a game-deciding situation in the middle of a pennant race? Your admission that you don't have the same information as Shildt, completely undermines the credibility of your next sentence.
If it were those two or Martinez on a 4th straight day? Absolutely. I didn’t say them over him on a normal day. I said over him on a 4th straight day. Let’s remember the scenario here.
Keep talking. The more you do, the more ridiculous you sound. You might win points in debate class with this, but anyone with common sense and a knowledge of the game wouldn't even consider taking you seriously.

User avatar
Bluejaygrad03
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 14877
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:40 pm
Location: Petersburg
Contact:

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by Bluejaygrad03 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:40 pm

SShadowJr wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:12 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:01 pm
sshoopster wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:36 pm


Cabrera and Fernandez? In a game-deciding situation in the middle of a pennant race? Your admission that you don't have the same information as Shildt, completely undermines the credibility of your next sentence.
If it were those two or Martinez on a 4th straight day? Absolutely. I didn’t say them over him on a normal day. I said over him on a 4th straight day. Let’s remember the scenario here.
Keep talking. The more you do, the more ridiculous you sound. You might win points in debate class with this, but anyone with common sense and a knowledge of the game wouldn't even consider taking you seriously.
I kind of see where tribe is coming from on this. Lemme ask those of you that disagreed with him this. In a scenario where Martinez has pitched 3 straight days and is needed on a 4th day, would you rather have him pitch considering his workload and history of arm problems or would you have someone else go for the save? And who would you have pitch in his place in that scenario?

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:53 pm

Bluejaygrad03 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:40 pm
SShadowJr wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:12 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:01 pm


If it were those two or Martinez on a 4th straight day? Absolutely. I didn’t say them over him on a normal day. I said over him on a 4th straight day. Let’s remember the scenario here.
Keep talking. The more you do, the more ridiculous you sound. You might win points in debate class with this, but anyone with common sense and a knowledge of the game wouldn't even consider taking you seriously.
I kind of see where tribe is coming from on this. Lemme ask those of you that disagreed with him this. In a scenario where Martinez has pitched 3 straight days and is needed on a 4th day, would you rather have him pitch considering his workload and history of arm problems or would you have someone else go for the save? And who would you have pitch in his place in that scenario?
It’s really not that hard. If someone is going to greatly increase an injury risk to one of its most important players for one inning in a 162 game season then they shouldn’t be managing people. If you have so little confidence in the other guys on your team to pitch one inning they shouldn’t be on the roster.

Heck. Why not just pitch your best pitcher every inning of every game???
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:53 pm

SShadowJr wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:12 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:01 pm
sshoopster wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:36 pm


Cabrera and Fernandez? In a game-deciding situation in the middle of a pennant race? Your admission that you don't have the same information as Shildt, completely undermines the credibility of your next sentence.
If it were those two or Martinez on a 4th straight day? Absolutely. I didn’t say them over him on a normal day. I said over him on a 4th straight day. Let’s remember the scenario here.
Keep talking. The more you do, the more ridiculous you sound. You might win points in debate class with this, but anyone with common sense and a knowledge of the game wouldn't even consider taking you seriously.
Why do you think the Milwaukee Brewers never use Josh Hader on four consecutive days? Are Craig Counsell and David Stearns idiots with no knowledge of the game or any common sense?
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

Redbird CC Fan
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 6646
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 3:53 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:42 pm

I am glad we can discuss these first place problems.
"Become vengeance, Redbird CC. Become wrath." -John Doe (Se7en, 1995) :SHOW32

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:31 pm

Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:42 pm
I am glad we can discuss these first place problems.
This offense is going to be the death of me.

In Colorado...back to back games against pitchers with 7.00+ ERAs and two runs in 15 innings? It isn't even like the team strikes out a ton. It's just a bunch of weak fly balls and ground balls all over the place.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
tombs14
All World
All World
Posts: 3263
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:21 pm
Location: Peoria County

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tombs14 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:04 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:53 pm
Bluejaygrad03 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:40 pm
SShadowJr wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:12 pm


Keep talking. The more you do, the more ridiculous you sound. You might win points in debate class with this, but anyone with common sense and a knowledge of the game wouldn't even consider taking you seriously.
I kind of see where tribe is coming from on this. Lemme ask those of you that disagreed with him this. In a scenario where Martinez has pitched 3 straight days and is needed on a 4th day, would you rather have him pitch considering his workload and history of arm problems or would you have someone else go for the save? And who would you have pitch in his place in that scenario?
It’s really not that hard. If someone is going to greatly increase an injury risk to one of its most important players for one inning in a 162 game season then they shouldn’t be managing people. If you have so little confidence in the other guys on your team to pitch one inning they shouldn’t be on the roster.

Heck. Why not just pitch your best pitcher every inning of every game???
I hope you felt the same or understood Cubs fans when Maddon left Strop into bat last year and he pulled his hammy. He was definitely one of the most important relievers they had last year while limping into the Wildcard.

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:11 pm

tombs14 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:04 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:53 pm
Bluejaygrad03 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:40 pm


I kind of see where tribe is coming from on this. Lemme ask those of you that disagreed with him this. In a scenario where Martinez has pitched 3 straight days and is needed on a 4th day, would you rather have him pitch considering his workload and history of arm problems or would you have someone else go for the save? And who would you have pitch in his place in that scenario?
It’s really not that hard. If someone is going to greatly increase an injury risk to one of its most important players for one inning in a 162 game season then they shouldn’t be managing people. If you have so little confidence in the other guys on your team to pitch one inning they shouldn’t be on the roster.

Heck. Why not just pitch your best pitcher every inning of every game???
I hope you felt the same or understood Cubs fans when Maddon left Strop into bat last year and he pulled his hammy. He was definitely one of the most important relievers they had last year while limping into the Wildcard.
I don't remember that exclusively but that sounds like a dumb decision. These guys aren't machines. In addition to a HUGE injury risk a pitcher pitching four days in a row loses a TON of effectiveness.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
jim beam
All World
All World
Posts: 3042
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:38 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by jim beam » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:54 am

Thank God the Birds have only put one run up the last 2 games following an off day. CMArt is well rested and you guys can now have a few days to rest this argument. After this Rockies series, the Cardinal schedule is challenging. It would not surprise me if they are in the wild card race within about 10 days.
Thanks J.J. for what I consider sound advice!

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:03 am

jim beam wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:54 am
Thank God the Birds have only put one run up the last 2 games following an off day. CMArt is well rested and you guys can now have a few days to rest this argument. After this Rockies series, the Cardinal schedule is challenging. It would not surprise me if they are in the wild card race within about 10 days.
Yep. After today’s game in Colorado all of the remaining games are against WC or Division contenders. Meanwhile the Brewers have a really easy schedule the rest of the way.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

karmasabitch
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:02 am

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by karmasabitch » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:11 am

The replies from the individuals who oppose Shildt’s decision contain speculation, illogical extrapolation, straw men, and non sequiturs. None of them answered the initial basic question: Who, specifically, name the pitcher(s), would you have used instead of Martinez, not knowing any of the factors Shildt had to weigh in making his decision?
Homey01:”Who is an alternative”?
Tribe: “A lot of guys. It’s a pretty good bullpen.” There’s a concise, detailed answer.
*The statement”…anyone with common sense and a knowledge of the game wouldn’t even consider taking you seriously.” is directed at the assertion that he would use Cabrera and Fernandez rather than Martinez on a 4th consecutive day. Given their total lack of experience in that situation, and with no knowledge of the information Shildt has about them and the way the organization wants to use them.
”Why do you think the Milwaukee Brewers never use Josh Hader on four consecutive days? Are Craig Counsell and David Stearns idiots with no knowledge of the game or any common sense?” Straw man, non sequitur-The thought processes and decisions Counsell makes regarding the use of Hader in various scenarios have no relevance or relationship to the decision Shildt had to make in using Martinez for the 4th consecutive day. The word “idiot” is tribe’s. Nowhere does it appear in the statement preceding the reply.
*”I don’t think it takes a magic pill to pitch the 9th inning of a game.” An analogy? To what? Mindset?
The psychological make-up of a closer doesn’t have to be any different than any other pitcher. Anybody can close out a 1-run game in the middle of a pressure-packed pennant race…right.
*”Of course, I don’t have the same information as Shildt. But I would have used any other pitcher in the bullpen over Martinez on four straight days.” The first sentence completely negates the credibility of the second sentence.
*”If you have so little confidence in the other guys on your team to pitch one inning, they shouldn’t be on the roster.”
“Heck. Why not just pitch your best pitcher every inning of every game?”
Aside from being a ridiculous statement on it’s own: an egregious illogical extrapolation and non sequitur.

Bluejay: “Would you rather have him pitch considering his workload and history of arm problems or would you have someone else go for the save? And who would you have pitch in his place in that scenario?” Directing that question to those who are cognizant of the extenuating factors, and agree with Shildt’s decision is illogical and misdirected.
“…who would you have pitch in his place in that scenario?” is the question which those who oppose his decision are correctly obligated to answer.

To be continued…

karmasabitch
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:02 am

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by karmasabitch » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:13 am

The bottom line here is:
*It’s easy for the peanut gallery to castigate Shildt for his decision, and not specifically state what their alternate course of action would have been, have it scrutinized, and have to defend it.
The critics have no clue regarding:
*The situation of the bullpen for that game.
*The information that was given to Shildt by bullpen coach Eversgerd and the pitchers, including Martinez, regarding their availability.
*Which pitchers had already been used in the game.
*The hitters due up and the potential pinch hitters.
*How the available alternatives (if any) to Martinez matched up against those hitters in comparison to Martinez.
To be credible, Shildt’s critics must stand up, be a man, and go on record naming the pitchers they would have used instead of Martinez; specifically, why they would have used those particular ones.

User avatar
jim beam
All World
All World
Posts: 3042
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:38 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by jim beam » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:48 am

Nice, welcome to the forum Mrs Shildt
Thanks J.J. for what I consider sound advice!

User avatar
Bluejaygrad03
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 14877
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:40 pm
Location: Petersburg
Contact:

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by Bluejaygrad03 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:02 pm

jim beam wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:48 am
Nice, welcome to the forum Mrs Shildt
Didn't realize people were starting to create burner accounts on here now. :P

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 21454
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: St. Louis Cardinals 2019

Post by tribecalledquest » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:27 pm

Bluejaygrad03 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:02 pm
jim beam wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:48 am
Nice, welcome to the forum Mrs Shildt
Didn't realize people were starting to create burner accounts on here now. :P
Ahh. They always have.

To quote Ace Ventura: “Obsess Much?”

But to answer Mrs Shildt here are the pitchers I would have used instead of using Carlos Martinez on 4 consecutive days (in this scenario): John Brebbia, Dominic Leone, John Gant, Andrew Miller, Giovanni Gallegos, Ryan Helsley, Junior Fernandez....and then every reliever not named Carlos Martinez.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests