League Defection Revisit

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by Braves4Life » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:10 am

tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:13 am

Their reputation as an educational institution is not good. Now a lot of that stuff is subjective but university Presidents drink that bath water. Murray would be easily the “worst” of all the schools academically if they entered the league. They make Missouri State look like Oxford University.

Let me add that the private presidents like more urban cities/locations. There are alumni there. Is there one BU grad in the city of Murray, Kentucky?
I didn't realize they were so poor academically. Their website makes them sound credible so I figured they were on par or better than MSU and slightly below SIU undergrad. Regarding Murray, KY... I've never even heard of it so it makes sense that it's a little redneck podunk town in KY.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by squirrel » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:26 am

Braves4Life wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:10 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:13 am

Their reputation as an educational institution is not good. Now a lot of that stuff is subjective but university Presidents drink that bath water. Murray would be easily the “worst” of all the schools academically if they entered the league. They make Missouri State look like Oxford University.

Let me add that the private presidents like more urban cities/locations. There are alumni there. Is there one BU grad in the city of Murray, Kentucky?
I didn't realize they were so poor academically. Their website makes them sound credible so I figured they were on par or better than MSU and slightly below SIU undergrad. Regarding Murray, KY... I've never even heard of it so it makes sense that it's a little redneck podunk town in KY.
Honestly, a school is a school is a school. But reputation matters to people with egos. Honestly, one can probably get a much better and more solid education through a school that had a lesser reputation than one with.

Also, I think another factor at that time was the State of Kentucky was also threatening to drastically reduce the budgets in their higher education system, even though the Murray board had already appropriated the money to make the move had an invite been forthcoming.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by MissouriValleyUnite » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:50 am

squirrel wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:26 am
Braves4Life wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:10 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:13 am

Their reputation as an educational institution is not good. Now a lot of that stuff is subjective but university Presidents drink that bath water. Murray would be easily the “worst” of all the schools academically if they entered the league. They make Missouri State look like Oxford University.

Let me add that the private presidents like more urban cities/locations. There are alumni there. Is there one BU grad in the city of Murray, Kentucky?
I didn't realize they were so poor academically. Their website makes them sound credible so I figured they were on par or better than MSU and slightly below SIU undergrad. Regarding Murray, KY... I've never even heard of it so it makes sense that it's a little redneck podunk town in KY.
Honestly, a school is a school is a school. But reputation matters to people with egos. Honestly, one can probably get a much better and more solid education through a school that had a lesser reputation than one with.

Also, I think another factor at that time was the State of Kentucky was also threatening to drastically reduce the budgets in their higher education system, even though the Murray board had already appropriated the money to make the move had an invite been forthcoming.
If the ACC - with academic institutions such as Duke, WF, UNC, UVa, GT, etc. - can swallow its pride and admit Louisville, the MVC can set aside its faux sense of academic superiority and bring in Murray.

MVC Presidents are operating with greater academic ego than the ACC. We deserve our 16th KenPom rating.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by JMM28 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:03 pm

1. Murray Kentucky is a long trip for all sports when you’re coming from Cedar Falls or Des Moines. After Wichita was gone and before Valpo was added, all it took was 2 nays to keep a school out.

2. Of the schools that left the MVC pre Creighton/Shockers, SLU is probably the only similar school. They’ve bounced around several iterations of similar conferences and ultimately wound up being left behind by the Cincinnati, Marquette, DePaul, Louisville, and Memphis in the remnants of CUSA. They land in the A10, a better conference than MVC, and wind up having their spot in the Big East realignment taken by Creighton or Butler. The A10 isn’t ideal and doesn’t bring in big tv revenue, but it is a better basketball conference for sure.

3. What blame do programs like Bradley or Missouri State take in the defections of Wichita and to a lesser extent Creighton(Big East money wasn’t being passed up)? If BU and Missouri State were performing to their potential over the last twenty years, the MVC looks quite a bit better to stick around in. If BU/Missouri State are consistent top 50/75 programs, the league isn’t far off the AAC with a much more stable membership.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by tribecalledquest » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:24 pm

MissouriValleyUnite wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:50 am
squirrel wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:26 am
Braves4Life wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:10 am


I didn't realize they were so poor academically. Their website makes them sound credible so I figured they were on par or better than MSU and slightly below SIU undergrad. Regarding Murray, KY... I've never even heard of it so it makes sense that it's a little redneck podunk town in KY.
Honestly, a school is a school is a school. But reputation matters to people with egos. Honestly, one can probably get a much better and more solid education through a school that had a lesser reputation than one with.

Also, I think another factor at that time was the State of Kentucky was also threatening to drastically reduce the budgets in their higher education system, even though the Murray board had already appropriated the money to make the move had an invite been forthcoming.
If the ACC - with academic institutions such as Duke, WF, UNC, UVa, GT, etc. - can swallow its pride and admit Louisville, the MVC can set aside its faux sense of academic superiority and bring in Murray.

MVC Presidents are operating with greater academic ego than the ACC. We deserve our 16th KenPom rating.
I agree. I wasn’t saying I agreed with the reasons or all the faux academic ratings but those things matter in that world of University Presidents.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by tribecalledquest » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:26 pm

JMM28 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:03 pm
1. Murray Kentucky is a long trip for all sports when you’re coming from Cedar Falls or Des Moines. After Wichita was gone and before Valpo was added, all it took was 2 nays to keep a school out.

2. Of the schools that left the MVC pre Creighton/Shockers, SLU is probably the only similar school. They’ve bounced around several iterations of similar conferences and ultimately wound up being left behind by the Cincinnati, Marquette, DePaul, Louisville, and Memphis in the remnants of CUSA. They land in the A10, a better conference than MVC, and wind up having their spot in the Big East realignment taken by Creighton or Butler. The A10 isn’t ideal and doesn’t bring in big tv revenue, but it is a better basketball conference for sure.

3. What blame do programs like Bradley or Missouri State take in the defections of Wichita and to a lesser extent Creighton(Big East money wasn’t being passed up)? If BU and Missouri State were performing to their potential over the last twenty years, the MVC looks quite a bit better to stick around in. If BU/Missouri State are consistent top 50/75 programs, the league isn’t far off the AAC with a much more stable membership.
I would guess the “gains” from playing in a marginally better basketball league like the A10 don’t make up for the ridiculous costs of travel for all of SLU’s athletic teams. They should be in the Valley. But speaking of egos.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by RobertsonFieldHouse7 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:29 pm

What blame do programs like Bradley or Missouri State take in the defections
This is what I was trying to get at, too, but you've done it much more concisely and elegantly.

Really, if the MVC schools had stepped up and thought of themselves as bigger-time, even if not Big Time, the conference and its schools could have held on to some of their lustre.

And then you wouldn't have people thinking that Wichita -- Wichita! -- is a major school in a big city (Wichita!).

Sure, the TV markets don't match big cities, but the conference with Wichita and StL and Tulsa and Memphis and/or Cincy would have been bigger, higher-profile, and higher-stakes.

But, as with this season for BU men's hoops, coulda woulda shoulda gets you ... nada.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by real fan » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:48 pm

Braves4Life wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:31 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:14 am
BradleyBrave wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:00 am
It’s not Elgin & Co that kept out Murray St. It’s university presidents and AD’s. Mostly presidents.
No matter how many times this is mentioned fans still don’t get it. Get mad at university presidents—including BU’s own—but not Doug Elgin when it comes to no Murray State.
Was there ever a reason given by the league for not pursuing Murray State? By all accounts they seem like a fine school academically, and they offer all of the requisite sports. Is it just a weird obsession not to add any more teams?
Adding more teams would make the Valley more relevant moving forward, Murray St; N.Kentucky, Wright St, Austin Peay, Oakland, Milwaukee plus others anyone cares to mention to form a 16 team league would give us more power at the table. You could have 2 divisions like a north and south one by geography that would make sense travel and budget wise.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by MissouriValleyUnite » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:02 pm

RobertsonFieldHouse7 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:29 pm
What blame do programs like Bradley or Missouri State take in the defections
This is what I was trying to get at, too, but you've done it much more concisely and elegantly.

Really, if the MVC schools had stepped up and thought of themselves as bigger-time, even if not Big Time, the conference and its schools could have held on to some of their lustre.

And then you wouldn't have people thinking that Wichita -- Wichita! -- is a major school in a big city (Wichita!).

Sure, the TV markets don't match big cities, but the conference with Wichita and StL and Tulsa and Memphis and/or Cincy would have been bigger, higher-profile, and higher-stakes.

But, as with this season for BU men's hoops, coulda woulda shoulda gets you ... nada.
Wichita pays a top 10 salary. That’s a major program.

City population rank:
25 Memphis
40 Omaha
47 Tulsa
50 Wichita
66 Cincinnati

That’s why Wichita is where they are. They’re the only show in town of a decent population.

Wichita as a city aspires to be Cincinnati, Memphis, & Tulsa.

WSU as a school aspires to be UCincinnati, UMemphis, & UHouston.

There’s a reason why Wichita, Cincinnati, Memphis, & Tulsa are in one league and Springfield, Peoria, Terre Haute, & Evansville are in another.

Drake (Des Moines) and Loyola (Chicago) are obviously far from the forefront of their market.

The AAC schools you mention are intrinsically built way different than Bradley or MVC schools. They’ll always have higher ceilings. That’s why realignment sorted itself out. It’s about schools who mutually want to associate with each other. Those schools aren’t interested in recruiting Peoria.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:30 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:48 pm
Braves4Life wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:31 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:14 am


No matter how many times this is mentioned fans still don’t get it. Get mad at university presidents—including BU’s own—but not Doug Elgin when it comes to no Murray State.
Was there ever a reason given by the league for not pursuing Murray State? By all accounts they seem like a fine school academically, and they offer all of the requisite sports. Is it just a weird obsession not to add any more teams?
Adding more teams would make the Valley more relevant moving forward, Murray St; N.Kentucky, Wright St, Austin Peay, Oakland, Milwaukee plus others anyone cares to mention to form a 16 team league would give us more power at the table. You could have 2 divisions like a north and south one by geography that would make sense travel and budget wise.

I'm not big on 16, but I think 12 would be a nice sweet spot financially for the league going forward. Sure, the piece of the pie may be smaller, but if you generate another bid, that certainly is better than 1/9
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by RobertsonFieldHouse7 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:09 pm

Those schools aren’t interested in recruiting Peoria.
Well, you're right, it really is about the cities (and, really, the TV markets) more so than the schools.

And you could say that Peoria has erred in thinking small, too, with its stubborn decades -- generations -- long dependence on all things CAT.

Peoria could have diversified its economic base beyond manufacturing as early as the 70s.

Peoria should have built better infrastructure (roads, airport, train, entertainment and non-transportation) and invested more in schools, including seeding/facilitating/encouraging greater growth at Bradley.

Peoria would have been a top-75 market today -- with a deep and dense enough population to support recruiting and TV viewing -- if it had the collective will to think of itself as bigger.

Coulda woulda shoulda = nada.

Too bad. It's a beautiful corner of the world.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by tribecalledquest » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:17 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:48 pm
Braves4Life wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:31 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:14 am


No matter how many times this is mentioned fans still don’t get it. Get mad at university presidents—including BU’s own—but not Doug Elgin when it comes to no Murray State.
Was there ever a reason given by the league for not pursuing Murray State? By all accounts they seem like a fine school academically, and they offer all of the requisite sports. Is it just a weird obsession not to add any more teams?
Adding more teams would make the Valley more relevant moving forward, Murray St; N.Kentucky, Wright St, Austin Peay, Oakland, Milwaukee plus others anyone cares to mention to form a 16 team league would give us more power at the table. You could have 2 divisions like a north and south one by geography that would make sense travel and budget wise.
If a team has 10 average players and then adds six more average players who does this help in the long run?
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by JMM28 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:07 am

real fan wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:48 pm
Braves4Life wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:31 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:14 am


No matter how many times this is mentioned fans still don’t get it. Get mad at university presidents—including BU’s own—but not Doug Elgin when it comes to no Murray State.
Was there ever a reason given by the league for not pursuing Murray State? By all accounts they seem like a fine school academically, and they offer all of the requisite sports. Is it just a weird obsession not to add any more teams?
Adding more teams would make the Valley more relevant moving forward, Murray St; N.Kentucky, Wright St, Austin Peay, Oakland, Milwaukee plus others anyone cares to mention to form a 16 team league would give us more power at the table. You could have 2 divisions like a north and south one by geography that would make sense travel and budget wise.
Congratulations on creating a new Horizon league?

You can have 16 mediocre programs and what power do you have? The same as if the Horizon and Summit hooked up. Zero.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by Braves4Life » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:16 am

JMM28 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:07 am
Congratulations on creating a new Horizon league?

You can have 16 mediocre programs and what power do you have? The same as if the Horizon and Summit hooked up. Zero.
I thought the same thing JMM. Quantity does not equal quality.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by BradleyBrave » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:26 am

I still think 12 team league adding a cool metro area like Milwaukee and a midmajor power like Murray or getting the Cincy metro area with Northern Kentucky would make the Valley awesome. But that's it. No more than 12.

However, I LOVE the round robin nature of our schedule and I would hate to lose that.

To me, this year has been proof positive that Bradley has the best opportunity to become a perennial Valley championship contender that it's had since the late 80's. And if we become the Creighton-like program that I think we can be, our league will be viewed as a great one again. There's a void that's been left by the departures of CU and WSU, and it's time we filled it.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by real fan » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:30 am

JMM28 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:07 am
real fan wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:48 pm
Braves4Life wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:31 am


Was there ever a reason given by the league for not pursuing Murray State? By all accounts they seem like a fine school academically, and they offer all of the requisite sports. Is it just a weird obsession not to add any more teams?
Adding more teams would make the Valley more relevant moving forward, Murray St; N.Kentucky, Wright St, Austin Peay, Oakland, Milwaukee plus others anyone cares to mention to form a 16 team league would give us more power at the table. You could have 2 divisions like a north and south one by geography that would make sense travel and budget wise.
Congratulations on creating a new Horizon league?

You can have 16 mediocre programs and what power do you have? The same as if the Horizon and Summit hooked up. Zero.
The teams mentioned have over the years been much better teams then most in the Horizon or Summit. You could subtract a few and add the Dakotas to the list or put a couple of different ones on it. I think 16 just makes for one that has more power moving forward. Tulsa and Oral Roberts would also be good except I doubt Tulsa would be interested do to football.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by SFP » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:17 am

SaintLouBrave22 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:15 am
BradleyBrave wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:00 am
It’s not Elgin & Co that kept out Murray St. It’s university presidents and AD’s. Mostly presidents.
Part of what I meant by "and company" however, I have been hearing for the last couple years that Elgin and Watkins differ on their ideas, concepts, and positioning of expansion. I have heard and keep hearing that Watkins was trying to push for it, while Elgin has been imploring those with the vote to strongly consider against it.
SLB22 I agree with our assessment on the MVC. There's been one consistent voice in the MVC and that is Elgin. He clearly is not a visionary. I've also through my years have seen a difference between academia and the real world when it comes to business. One thing I likes about BU business school in the day that there were a few classes taught by professors who worked for corporations and taught part time. It always seemed that they pointed out the difference.

A state of privileged seclusion or separation from the facts and practicalities of the real world.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:37 pm

If you're adding Milwaukee you are doing it for the area and area alone and not focused on the lack of care for that program.

I think it would behoove the league to look more at up and coming NKU for the 12th because it not only gives a travel and region rival to Murray but they also look like more of an upward trajectory program.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by squirrel » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:18 pm

BradleyBrave wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:26 am
I still think 12 team league adding a cool metro area like Milwaukee and a midmajor power like Murray or getting the Cincy metro area with Northern Kentucky would make the Valley awesome. But that's it. No more than 12.

However, I LOVE the round robin nature of our schedule and I would hate to lose that.
I don't think you have to lose it...most leagues are going to 20-22 games now...

H-H vs. your division - 10 games
H-H vs. the other division - 12 games
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by real fan » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:27 pm

squirrel wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:18 pm
BradleyBrave wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:26 am
I still think 12 team league adding a cool metro area like Milwaukee and a midmajor power like Murray or getting the Cincy metro area with Northern Kentucky would make the Valley awesome. But that's it. No more than 12.

However, I LOVE the round robin nature of our schedule and I would hate to lose that.
I don't think you have to lose it...most leagues are going to 20-22 games now...

H-H vs. your division - 10 games
H-H vs. the other division - 12 games
With 12 teams you could do 22 league games. Add Murray and N.Kentucky and play the round robin schedule, would rather add those as 2 more home games and subtract 2 bad non con home ones. Scheduling would be made easier.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by TheAsianSensation » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:42 pm

Please don't make me go on my anti-20 or anti-22 conference game rant. Please.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by squirrel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:04 am

TheAsianSensation wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:42 pm
Please don't make me go on my anti-20 or anti-22 conference game rant. Please.
Didn't say I liked it. Just pointing out that is the current direction of the DI game. :D :gagr
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by real fan » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:19 am

TheAsianSensation wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:42 pm
Please don't make me go on my anti-20 or anti-22 conference game rant. Please.
I would rather play 22 conf. games then play non conf. home games against Chicago St; Eureka College and other lower level teams. N. Kentucky and Murray St. would give us much better competition plus boost attendance , a win win in my opinion.

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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by TheAsianSensation » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:21 am

real fan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:19 am
TheAsianSensation wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:42 pm
Please don't make me go on my anti-20 or anti-22 conference game rant. Please.
I would rather play 22 conf. games then play non conf. home games against Chicago St; Eureka College and other lower level teams. N. Kentucky and Murray St. would give us much better competition plus boost attendance , a win win in my opinion.
Chicago St and Eureka wouldn't be the games to disappear. Georgia Southern and St Joe's would disappear.
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Re: League Defection Revisit

Post by squirrel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:23 am

TheAsianSensation wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:21 am
real fan wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:19 am
TheAsianSensation wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:42 pm
Please don't make me go on my anti-20 or anti-22 conference game rant. Please.
I would rather play 22 conf. games then play non conf. home games against Chicago St; Eureka College and other lower level teams. N. Kentucky and Murray St. would give us much better competition plus boost attendance , a win win in my opinion.
Chicago St and Eureka wouldn't be the games to disappear. Georgia Southern and St Joe's would disappear.
Bingo-because home games become more precious, and there are fewer of them. Few teams would ever leave home, which effectively means more Chicago States and non-DIs.
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